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Matthew Fox

plays in the evolution of the universe?

Matthew: I think that God is the mind of the universe. I don’t think there’s any other explanation for the accomplishments of the universe except for mind consciousness.

David: Do you equate consciousness with spirit?

Matthew: Partly. I think that spirit includes consciousness but that consciousness does not necessarily include all of spirit. The word consciousness is a little too psychological for me, a little too anthropocentric.

Rebecca: Do you see a Divine plan in nature?

Matthew: A Divine plan?

Rebecca: Yeah. It’s a very popular idea right now especially with all this millennial energy getting stirred up, that we’re all on our way somewhere.(laughter)

Matthew: Well, let’s see, there’s the American Way…(laughter) Science has confirmed that there’s order in the universe as well as chaos. What’s really interesting is that order comes out of the chaos - which is the creative process. You need the Via Negativa and chaos before you can get creative.

David: Can you tell us about your Institute of Culture and Creation Spirituality and any other projects that you’re working on.

Matthew: I started eighteen years ago in Chicago and it was a deliberate and conscious effort to re-invent education. I’d done a study on spirituality and education and had found that they weren’t treating justice, feminism, art or science as spiritual. I realized that you can’t do these things in a Cartesian model of education and develop the right brain and the body.

So I threw out the model of education that we take for granted in the West and designed one which has right and left brain work. We do a lot of meditation and ritual, we include a lot of Native people and their music, and sweat lodges. We also study western and eastern mystics. And it’s a model that works. It’s not boring at all. People go through transformation and it’s very powerful.

I would like to give this model away to universities, high schools, specialty schools. We would like to do conferences for journalists, cyber-spirituality people and artists.

David: Cyber-spirituality?

Matthew: Yeah, computer nerds. You’ve got all this wonderful technology and power - what are you going to do with it, make more money for the insurance companies? We ought to be using that technology to do things that are worthwhile like birth rituals to heal people and empower them. That’s what I’d like to do. All I need is money.(laughter)

Rebecca: Do you feel that your message is getting out there and that people are listening?

Matthew: There are several hundred Creation Spirituality based communities around the world. We just got word from aborigines in Australia and they want to start an ICCS program in Kimberley which is where the aboriginal culture is most strong. They want to take our model and use it and get white people and take them into the bush for a week and teach them about aboriginal ways. I’m very honored by that. At least the aboriginals understand what we’re trying to do! So far the Westerners have been slower to catch on. (laughter)

Rebecca: It seems that there is a real crisis in the Church.

Matthew: I think that the Vatican is in a deep crisis of faith which they should be praying for. They don’t trust theologians, they don’t trust women, they don’t trust gays and they don’t trust nature. The rest of us who do and who are looking for answers should just get on with the work. Frankly, I think that as we get on with the work, it’s going to be so delightful and fun that everyone’s going to want to come along. Nothing changes people like delight. The way our culture and religion is running is very undelightful and the most basic things like health care and education are ridiculously expensive.

Rebecca: Do you think it’s possible that within your lifetime the power elite of the Church will ever undergo a real transformation?

Matthew: Repent of their sins? (laughter) Well, one can pray can’t one?

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